Get ready to read one of the most candid and in-depth interviews ever from EPEX!
The C9 Entertainment boy group EPEX is set to release their first full length album Youth Chapter 1 : YOUTH DAYS on April 9th at 6 p.m KST. The upcoming release sees the octet begin a new album series following the conclusion of their Bipolar series with Prelude of Anxiety Chapter 2. ‘Can We Surrender?’ in October of last year.
Since their 2021 debut, EPEX has explored deep and relevant themes that affect many youth today. It’s through their direct lyrical approach and meaningful messages that the group has captured the hearts of fans (called “ZENITH”). Not to be overshadowed by their high-octane energy, impeccable raps, and top-tier vocals, the group does not shy away from subjects that few acts will touch upon in music.
The group’s last comeback reached a career-high in record sales with almost 250,000 copies in its first week, further highlighting the group’s ongoing rise in popularity and impact.
After holding their first-ever fan-con “SUNSHOWER” in Seoul, Japan, and Taipei in early 2023, EPEX recently wrapped up their “So We Are Not Anxious” concerts in Korea, Japan, Hong Kong and Taiwan.
Meanwhile, the group was part of a special collaboration track “Peppermint Yum” with J-pop superstars FANTASTICS from EXILE TRIBE. In addition, they recently dropped the pre-release song “Graduation Day,” which increased anticipation for EPEX’s upcoming full-length album, reaching 10 million views on its music video in less than 10 days of release.
Despite their busy schedules, members Wish, Keum, Mu, A-Min, Baekseung, Ayden, Yewang, and Jeff graciously took time to candidly chat with What The Kpop about their career highs so far, how they handle anxiety, their future aspirations, and how they bring heavy themes to the forefront through their music.
Check out our interview with EPEX below!
WTK: Everyone is so looking forward to your new comeback! Yet, we also loved your last album, Prelude of Anxiety Chapter 2. ‘Can We Surrender?’. Let’s take a few minutes to chat about it! What was each member’s favorite song from that album?
WISH: I like “Surrender” the most, as it has a clear storyline, and the harmony between the performance and the song is great as well.
KEUM: I like “Hit The Wall” the most, as the message contained in the lyrics was the most impressive to me.
MU: “Surrender” is my favorite too. I think the concept is different, and the choreography itself is cool.
AYDEN: The title song, “FULL METAL JACKET,” is my favorite song. I like it the most because the overall atmosphere of the song is so good, and the choreography is cool.
WTK: What was the most challenging song to record for that album?
KEUM: The title song, “FULL METAL JACKET,” was the most difficult. We practiced a lot to create a feeling that matched the overall atmosphere of the song.
MU: The title song was the most difficult for me as well. It’s a song with a more intense feel than our previous releases, and we felt it wasn’t easy because it was the first choreography with multiple dancers. However, we’re satisfied with how cool it came out.
A-MIN: Personally, “Hit The Wall” was the most difficult for me, as I practiced a lot to maintain the song’s unique sense of rhythm.
WTK: Can you tell us about the MV concept for your last comeback “FULL METAL JACKET”?
MU: This is a continuation of the theme of the previous album’s music videos. Until the previous album, an absolute being had been in control, and the main characters had completely complied under that control without question. However, the [“FULL METAL JACKET”] music video expresses the process of realizing that they are oppressed and making efforts to escape.
WTK: Were there any interesting episodes that happened while filming?
KEUM: I remember the choreography scene filmed in the rain at the site. This was our first experience dancing in the rain while filming, and since it was a shoot involving water, it was more memorable as it was directed to emphasize the unique atmosphere and style.
BAEKSEUNG: We filmed a running scene, and I vividly remember sprinting with the members. We had a competition to see who was faster. When I think about that scene, I still feel out of breath.
JEFF: There was a part where I filmed with a camera mounted on my body, and I remember it most probably because it was my first time using the filming technique. We were worried about what would happen if the camera fell, but it was sturdier than I expected, and the results came out well, so I’m satisfied.
WTK: “FULL METAL JACKET” explored the reality of school violence through warnings about the danger of this very real and tragic problem. This is a topic you have previously explored in your song, “Cyanide.” Why is this something EPEX continues to be passionate about and bring awareness to?
KEUM: We think you may find it a bit provocative, but we hope that those of us living today will raise awareness of the dangers of school violence and the tragic reality that arises from it so that such incidents will no longer occur. Although it is a heavy topic, we hope it is expressed well through music and performance.
WTK: Is it challenging to prepare for a title song that contains such a heavy and topical message?
WISH: As it was a heavy topic, there were some cautions. However, we prepared it because we thought we needed a song that raises awareness and sings about the problem of school violence experienced by our peers and that someone should do it.
AYDEN: The challenge lay in how to convey a heavy message to people directly but not excessively. Since it was a sensitive topic, we were more concerned. After much thought and consideration, this album was released.
YEWANG: Our focus was on expressing the lyrics and concept. As we were trying to convey the message, we wanted through both the concept and lyrics, we had a lot of worries about how to express it by focusing on two things, but through a lot of practice and the conversations among members, this album was released to the world.
WTK: What advice can you share with anyone currently experiencing this?
KEUM: I hope you will remember that there is nothing wrong with you. I hope you keep your ground strong by thinking that it’s the fault of [the one] who harmed you.
AYDEN: It will be a series of difficult moments where you feel like giving up. In such cases, I hope you will make your voice heard by the people around you. No one goes unheard when you raise your voice.
JEFF: I hope you don’t think, “It’ll be okay if I just endure it, it will pass quickly.” If you hold back, you will get sick, and no one can predict how difficult it is to simply wait for time to pass. I know it’s cruel to have to try something in a situation you don’t want to be in, but I hope you’ll still try to get out of it.
WTK: Are any of the members currently writing or composing music themselves? Or does anyone have ambitions to write or compose in the future?
A-MIN: I haven’t participated in the album yet. However, I have always been interested in composition, so I would like to learn it and participate in it.
BAEKSEUNG: In the future, I would like to compose an EPEX album with songs I write myself and our story from my perspective.
AYDEN: I think making and participating in my [own] music is very meaningful. If I can [have the opportunity to] compose or write lyrics I will not hesitate to give it a try.
YEWANG: I have always been interested in composing music. I have always liked making songs with the guitar, so if I got the chance, I would like to compose my songs and let many people hear them.
JEFF: I felt sentimental when I thought that there were people comforted by our songs. How great would it be to create a song that could comfort someone’s heart and make them cry? I want to try writing lyrics and composing music.
WTK: Since your debut, EPEX’s concepts and lyrics have touched on serious topics, most notably about mental health. Many fans praise you for being able to put such important messages in your songs, and they find comfort in your music. How does that sort of positive response make you feel?
WISH: I think it helped me realize once again why I sing and why I wanted to sing. Also, knowing that what I do is comforting someone makes me feel rich as it raises my self-esteem too.
BAEKSEUNG: I thought, “Ah, it was a good choice that I became a singer and joined EPEX.” We are proud and happy that we can be of help to someone.
YEWANG: I feel so grateful every time I hear it. I will continue to gain strength every time I listen to our songs, and we will continue to grow so that many people can receive comfort.
JEFF: I think this is one of the reasons why EPEX exists. I am so proud, overwhelmed, and happy to hear that people are comforted by the message we send through music.
WTK: Which member do you think has grown the most and why?
A-MIN: There is a member whose confidence has improved since their debut, and that is YEWANG. I am receiving a positive influence from him because he has shown a lot of improvements. As a member of the same team, I am proud of my teammate’s growth.
BAEKSEUNG: I think I’ve grown the most. I feel like I’ve become a lot more confident. I grow every time through our promotions, but I feel like I’ve grown even more with this album.
JEFF: I think each of my members made up for their shortcomings so it would be difficult to pick just one person. Also, judging from the areas where we fit together well, it seems like everyone has grown a lot.
WTK: If you could tell your pre-debut self something that you’ve learned since debuting, what would it be and why?
A-MIN: I would like to say that I hope you will believe in yourself a lot. This is because I believe that if you believe in yourself and continue to follow one path, good things will surely follow.
BAEKSEUNG: I would like to push myself further to practice more. I want to say, “You still have a long way to go, so let’s work harder!”
AYDEN: I would like to tell myself to have a bigger perspective and to constantly strive and grow because the world I see is not everything.
WTK: I know Keum and Baekseung have appeared in dramas before, would they like to do more in the future?
KEUM: I think acting is special and mysterious. When I’m acting, I feel like I’m talking to my inner self which feels new and refreshing. I would like to try it whenever I have the chance!
BAEKSEUNG: I think acting allows me to become someone new. Therefore, I always find [it] interesting. If a good opportunity arises, I would like to continue to challenge myself further in acting.
WTK: Are any other members interested in acting too?
WISH: Since I usually like watching dramas and movies, I thought “What would it be like if I played a role like that?” Thinking about it, I am interested in acting!
MU: Seeing Keum acting, I wanted to give it a try at least once, and as a great opportunity I was able to act in a drama called “Butler’s Dream” [which also stars Wish, A-Min, and Baekseung]. Please look forward to seeing another side of us.
AYDEN: Among the members, some members acted, so I watched it with great interest. I don’t know when it will happen, but I want to give it a try at least once.
WTK: What is everyone’s favorite drama or movie to watch? It can be Korean or international.
WISH: I like the movie “Titanic.” The overall flow and content of the movie were very impressive, but especially, “Getting a ticket to board this ship was the luckiest thing in my life. Because I met you.” These lines always linger in my head.
AYDEN: I like the actor Leonardo DiCaprio, and I like the movie he starred in, “Inception.” The story that goes back and forth between dreams and reality is exciting and the unpredictable development is truly fascinating.
JEFF: I like dramas, but I especially like writer Kim Eun-Sook’s dramas! Among her works, my favorite is “Guardian: The Lonely and Great God.” I truly enjoyed the romantic tale full of fantasy elements!
WTK: Last year you held your first Fan-Con “SUNSHOWER” in Seoul, Tokyo, Kobe, and Taipei. How was it? Could you tell us about some memorable moments that happened?
BAEKSEUNG: I remember all the moments from the fan concert. It was amazing that the atmosphere of the concert hall felt different in each country, and it was a happy moment to feel that many ZENITHs were supporting us while we performed.
AYDEN: As the fan concert progressed, I became more relaxed and could enjoy the stage more. Every moment I spend with my fans is unforgettable.
YEWANG: I remember the day the last tour stop ended. We all ate delicious food together and talked about our hard work! It was great to be able to build memories with fans through the tour.
WTK: EPEX had plans to visit the U.S. with their “Eight Apex” tour, which unfortunately had to be canceled due to unforeseen circumstances. Do you have any more plans to visit international fans in the future?
WISH: We can’t tell you in detail yet, but if we get the chance, we would like to meet ZENITH overseas again as soon as possible. We will prepare hard until then, so please listen to our music, watch our content, and wait in good health.
MU: If we get the chance, we want to go meet our fans whenever we can. We also receive tremendous strength when we perform on stage while seeing ZENITH cheering us on, so we want to meet them as soon as possible. We can’t tell you our plans yet, but we will come to see you.
BAEKSEUNG: We are always practicing hard and preparing to meet our overseas fans at any time. If we get the chance, we would like to meet all ZENITHs around the world as soon as possible.
WTK: What places would you like to travel to and perform in?
KEUM: Personally, these are regions I would like to travel to, which are North and South Poles.
MU: I would like to go to Brazil or other South American countries that are full of passion.
BAEKSEUNG: I want to do the U.S. Tour.
AYDEN: I would like to perform in the United States. I’ve heard a lot of people say that the response from American audiences is enthusiastic, so I can’t wait to hear their cheers.
WTK: Have any of the members traveled outside of Asia before? If so, where? Please tell us about it.
WISH: I have been to the U.S. and Canada.
A-MIN: My aunt lives in Canada, so I lived there for a short time when I was young.
WTK: EPEX performed a cover of Stray Kids’ “God’s Menu” at the 2021 INK Incheon K-POP Concert just a few months after your debut. So many international fans were praising that performance, and even Stray Kids’ fans voiced how impressed they were with the cover. What was that experience like of performing a song by one of your seniors just a few months after your debut?
WISH: It was a song by a senior we always respected, so we tried to cover it as similarly as possible. We were very nervous, but we were glad that we finished the performance well.
A-MIN: We were very nervous as it was our first cover since our debut, but we were proud, and we want to cover the stages of great seniors again in the future.
BAEKSEUNG: It was a song that suited Stray Kids very well, and we thought they looked very cool on stage. Therefore, on the other hand, we had a lot of worries about whether we could do well and whether we could create the same feeling. However, we’re so happy that it turned out well for all the effort.
WTK: More recently you appeared on the program “Music Universe K-909” performing a cover of B1A4’s “Baby Good Night.” I thought you guys did an amazing job, I really LOVED your rock rendition of the song. What was the process like of reworking that song to fit EPEX’s style?
WISH: The song itself, “Baby Good Night,” is full of charms, and the arrangement came out well. When we covered it, I was satisfied that EPEX’s unique colors were applied well.
YEWANG: From the moment I received the arrangement guide, I wanted to sing it quickly. I liked the song that much, and I liked the band’s sound, so I was curious about how it suited my voice. I liked the song, and the process was fun.
WTK: Are there any K-pop or international songs that you would like to cover in the future, either as a group or solo?
A-MIN: I would like to cover a song by senior KAI of EXO, who always shines on stage. I want to learn from him because his songs and fantastic performances always seem to fill the whole stage.
AYDEN: I would like to cover senior NCT TAEYONG’s first solo album “SHALALA.” It is a hip-hop genre song that contains the message, ‘We can all shine anywhere.’ I want to try it because I admire its good melodies and the meaning behind the lyrics.
JEFF: I am a fan of the senior group, SEVENTEEN, and I want to reinterpret my favorite song, “HOT” by SEVENTEEN, in EPEX’s way.
WTK: As your previous album was titled Prelude of Anxiety Chapter 2. ‘Can We Surrender?’ What is something that makes you feel anxious? And how do you deal with anxiety?
WISH: When I think about the future, sometimes I feel anxious for no reason. I usually relieve anxiety through hobbies such as watching movies or playing basketball.
BAEKSEUNG: I feel like I have a lot of anxiety about the future, so I focus more on the present because I must do well in the present to make that anxiety go away.
YEWANG: I am most afraid of failure while practicing. Even though I practice hard, I am anxious because I wonder if I am lacking something, and then I am relieving my anxiety by practicing even more. Also, when dealing with anxiety, I usually try to sleep. This is because complex thoughts disappear the moment you sleep.
WTK: What is something you “surrender” to? (In other words, what is something you can’t resist such as a food, hobby, or pastime?)
WISH: Every time I go on a diet, I am in agony about whether to give in because I like to eat.
A-MIN: I play games with Ayden as a hobby, and it’s so much fun that I can’t resist.
AYDEN: I always surrender to drowsiness. I tend to sleep a lot, so if I’m given a short waiting time, I go to sleep right away.
WTK: What is your favorite part of the creative process? Recording the songs, learning the choreography, filming the MV, etc.
KEUM: I think the best part was the choreography class where I could feel the passion of the members.
AYDEN: The jacket shoot was fun. I received a lot of compliments and became more confident, so I think I ended up taking a lot of great photos.
JEFF: Everything was good, but I think I had the most fun while recording. This is because I had a lot of fun recording it while shouting.
WTK: Is there a possibility of unit or solo projects in the future?
JEFF: We can’t tell you much yet, but if we get the chance, we’d like to prepare a song that can show the colors of each of EPEX’s rap lines and vocal lines or a song that can show the charm of an appropriate mix of rap lines and vocal lines. Please look forward to our endeavors.
WTK: Can you tell us one thing about each member that would surprise us (something fans don’t already know about you)?
WISH: Ayden’s bowling skills are amazing, so if by chance, I want to show these skills to the public.
KEUM: There are many charms that we haven’t shown yet, but I want to show you Mu’s cooking skills that you may not know about.
MU: Keum has a hidden talent, and I think he’ll be able to show it to you if he gets the chance.
A-MIN: I don’t know if you know, but the members are working hard behind the scenes, and Yewang is a member who practices vocals and dances a lot wherever he is, so I want to praise him. He shares a positive influence on me.
BAEKSEUNG: I don’t think you know our comfortable and natural sides yet, but in the future, we want to show our natural sides through various content.
AYDEN: It’s regretful that fans haven’t been able to see much of Mu’s humorous moments yet, but we will do our best to show them to you as soon as possible.
YEWANG: If there is a chance, we would like to show our fans that Jeff’s working out hard.
JEFF: I don’t think you know much about A-Min’s flexibility and concentration when it comes to learning choreography, but if by chance, I’d like to show it to you.
WTK: If each of you were stranded alone on a deserted island and could only have one other member with you, which member would you choose and why?
MU: I want to go with Wish, who is strong and seems like he will help me with everything.
AYDEN: I will also choose Wish. I think because he has good athletic ability, so chances of survival will increase.
JEFF: As the members are precious, I will not choose and will go alone.
WTK: This is a very important question. When you have cereal, do you pour cereal first or milk first?
WISH: I like my cereal to be crunchy, so I add milk first.
KEUM: Pour the cereal first, determine the amount, and then pour the milk.
MU: Pour the cereal first, then pour the milk according to my mood that day.
A-MIN: Pour as much cereal as I want to eat first, then pour milk accordingly.
BAEKSEUNG: I put the cereal in first because it is easier to do so.
AYDEN: Pour in the milk first. This is because pouring milk first gives me mental comfort.
YEWANG: I pour the cereal in first, and since I like my cereal soggy, I like the cereal to be submerged under the milk.
JEFF: Pour in the cereal first, then the milk. And then I adjust the amount of milk according to the amount of cereal.
WTK: If you could only eat one thing for the rest of your life, what would it be?
WISH: If I had to choose one food, it would be Korean ramen! There are many different types of ramen, and I like noodles!
KEUM: I will choose a hamburger because it has a clear ratio of carbs, protein, and fat.
MU: Since I like something sweet, I will choose desserts with cream.
A-MIN: I will choose kimchi fried rice as it is the most simple and delicious fried rice.
BAEKSEUNG: I will choose my favorite food, pizza.
AYDEN: I will choose gukbap (Korean soup with rice) because soup and rice are in one bowl, and you can consume a variety of nutrients.
YEWANG: I will also eat a hamburger. I will choose [it] because I think the ratio of carbs, protein, and fat in a burger is not bad.
JEFF: I will also choose Korean ramen because there are a lot of different types.
WTK: If you weren’t a K-pop idol, what career would you be doing?
WISH: I think I became an athlete because I like sports.
KEUM: I think I would be a barista or a writer as I had been interested in becoming either one of them.
MU: I think I’d choose to become a designer as I like to design something.
A-MIN: Since I was good at video editing, I think I would have worked on making videos.
BAEKSEUNG: I think I will be dreaming of becoming a basketball player.
AYDEN: I think it might be a job related to language. I think I would have studied language more diligently if I had studied consistently.
YEWANG: Since I like drawing, I think I might be a cartoonist.
JEFF: I think I will be the general manager of the hotel. This is because I grew up watching my uncle, who was the general manager of the hotel.
WTK: Favorite app on your phone?
WISH: YouTube, because I like watching various videos.
KEUM: I have never imagined music missing from my daily life. That’s why I use apps that allow me to listen to music the most.
MU: My favorite app is the one that allows me to communicate with my fans, ZENITHs.
A-MIN: I like music-listening apps the most because I feel the most comfortable when I listen to songs.
BAEKSEUNG: It is YouTube because I use it and like it the most.
AYDEN: As I tend to be curious about what’s going on in the world every day, I use the Internet portal site app habitually.
YEWANG: I love TikTok, which is an app I’ve been using since its beginning, and it’s my favorite because I like watching short forms.
JEFF: I like YouTube the most because there are so many things I can do.
WTK: What is your most used emoji?
WISH: I often use 🥰 with my fans because it can express both cuteness and loveliness.
KEUM: Since I mostly check my schedule on my phone, I seem to use ‘Thank you!’ emoticons a lot to the staff who share the schedule with us.
MU: I usually use the ‘pat pat’ emoticon! It is often used to convey to fans that they have worked hard today.
A-MIN: I use 😗 a lot, because saying something and adding this emoji makes it look shameless, confident, and cute.
BAEKSEUNG: I usually use heart emoticons to express my affection while communicating with ZENITH.
AYDEN: I often use the orange heart emoji. When I first debuted, I wanted to use a heart with my color. I thought no one else would use orange, so I chose an orange heart.
YEWANG: I don’t use emojis very often, but if I had to pick one that I use often, it’s the 🥺 emoji. I think it’s often used when the other person is sharing their concerns or wants some empathy.
JEFF: I often use the cute ‘Mang-gom‘ [Kakao friends’ “Broken Bear”] emoticon that suits me best!
WTK: What is your favorite thing you own and why?
WISH: It’s earphones as I always listen to songs in my daily life. It’s truly unbearable not listening to songs in my daily life!
KEUM: Perfume is my favorite possession because I can express my mood every day through scent.
MU: I also like perfume! Smelling good scents makes me feel good, so I always make sure my body smells good.
A-MIN: On days like these, I need more lip balm. When my lips are dry, they look dry and bad. As I like lip balms with a cooling effect, not just regular lip balms, cooling lip balms are my favorite.
BAEKSEUNG: I love hand cream! My hands are exposed more often than I think, so I always take care of the skin on my hands. Since the weather is dry these days during the change of seasons, I carry two with me just in case.
AYDEN: I think hair bands are important. I have very thick hair, so I make sure to use it when doing my skincare.
YEWANG: I carry a humidifier with me. It helps me take care of my throat and is my most precious item in the winter.
JEFF: Lip balm is my favorite because I don’t think I can live without it.
WTK: I know EPEX recently moved into a new dorm, so who does the majority of the chores there?
KEUM: Jeff, who can’t stand the mess, seems to be in charge most times.
MU: I think it’s Jeff who has always shown that he cleans up without complaint even when it’s messy.
A-MIN: It’s Jeff, the cleanest member in EPEX.
YEWANG: I’d say Jeff is in charge of cleaning. He keeps his surroundings clean and seems to take the lead in cleaning.
WTK: What’s EPEX’s TMI for today?
MU: On my way to dance practice, my face looked handsome in the mirror.
A-MIN: I feel good after eating delicious beef.
YEWANG: I wanted to go home as I was going to school.
WTK: What EPEX content would you recommend for people who don’t know about EPEX yet? (It could be a particular song, music video, performance, variety, etc.)
KEUM: There is a behind-the-scenes video of us called “EPEX:GO”! You can see our natural side, which is different from what you might see in the music video.
MU: We recommend watching our live stage videos or fan cams. This is because you can see our professional side on stage.
BAEKSEUNG: Please be sure to watch our music video. The song is good, and the atmosphere is great as well.
YEWANG: I would like to recommend one of our songs, “No Questions.” The lyrics that represent the hearts of teenagers are impressive, so I hope you’ll listen to it.
JEFF: I would like to recommend the EPEX documentary. By watching the documentary, you can get to know the EPEX members in more depth.
WTK: What’s your proudest or most memorable achievement in your career so far?
KEUM: I am proud of the initial sales of the latest album of our career. However, we will not be satisfied and will work even harder.
MU: I remember the carol album by all C9 Entertainment artists. We worked on that album with our seniors, and I was able to learn a lot from it. In addition, the song is so good that I hope the song blasts everywhere for every Christmas.
A-MIN: I am proud to have participated in our senior artist Younha‘s song, “Oort Cloud.”
YEWANG: I am proud of receiving the Rookie Award at the Seoul Music Awards. I had been to the Seoul Music Awards before my debut, and I was surprised to receive that award, which can only be received once after debut, at the awards show that I had previously attended.
JEFF: I remember our debut stage the most. I was nervous and excited, and it was the day that announced our first start, and even thinking about it now makes my heart beat again.
WTK: And finally, can you send a message to all the What The Kpop readers and international fans?
WISH: We are happy to be able to convey our story through such an interesting interview. Thank you always for liking us and showing interest in us even from afar. We hope to see you soon with good news. We love you!
KEUM: Please continue to look forward to and love the bright and lively EPEX!
MU: Thank you for always supporting and loving us. Please continue to watch our growth in the future!
YEWANG: EPEX is a group of eight members with different charms. We will come to you with good songs and performances. We ask for your interest.
EPEX’s first full-length album Youth Chapter 1 : YOUTH DAYS will be released on April 9th at 6 p.m KST!
We wish the group all the success in their future plans and activities, and we hope to catch up with them again soon!
WTK would like to express a huge thank you to EPEX for their generous time and thoughtful answers, as well as to C9 Entertainment and Helix Publicity for arranging this interview.
Meanwhile, connect with EPEX on Twitter/X (Members’ Twitter/X), Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and TikTok!
Lead Writer and Interviewer: Justin Esposito
MEDIA: C9 Entertainment
*This interview has been edited for clarity.